Talk:Grade I listed buildings in England completed in the 20th century

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Copying attributions[edit]

With thanks to the editors of the Listed building article, I have copied some of the material to create the introduction to this list. It could probably be trimmed some more, with a link. KJP1 (talk) 10:36, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And to all of editors of the regional lists of listed buildings, from which all the table derives. KJP1 (talk) 06:31, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Needs some work[edit]

This does need some work. First, I think it would be better as a table, like Grade I listed buildings in the City of Westminster. Second, it's completely uncited! Third, it certainly contains some incorrect entries - see below. I'll start to try and bring a bit of order. KJP1 (talk) 05:33, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Removed the Temple of Piety, Studley Royal Park, which dates from 1736;
  • Removed the Berwick town walls and Bell Tower. The former are medieval in origin, and I'm sure the latter's not 20th century.
  • Removed St James' Church, Bramley as this is Norman in date. Was this list put together with insufficient care, or has it been vandalised?
  • Removed St Andrew's Mottisfont which dates from the 12th C. This list seems to have been rather inaccurate since its creation in 2008.
  • Removed Dovecote, Mary Arden's House, Stratford On Avon, Warwickshire as it's 16th C.
  • Removed Church of St Lawrence, Chobham - it was begun 1080!
  • Removed both Canterbury Cathedral entries, as 20th century additions/reworkings/renovations to much older structures
  • Removed 20 Bedford Square - 18th century
  • Removed Union Suspension Bridge as built 1820, with 20thC. improvements

A table would be an improvement and it would definitely be helpful to have the Historic England for each building. As there should be existing table entries for each item on the Category:Lists of Grade I listed buildings in England by county lists then the EH listed building row for each could be copied across to here. EdwardUK (talk) 13:16, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

EdwardUK - Edward, many thanks for this. A nice and easy cut-and-paste job! I like those. Can I ask your advice, while you're here. I want a definitive list of the 20th century buildings (I doubt there are any 21st century as I think HE has a thirty-year rule?) which are listed Grade I. I don't know the original sources for this article but it included things it shouldn't, and didn't include things that it should (see above). The Historic England Advanced Search [1] should allow me to do this. There's a filter, Historic Period, which enables me to select "20th Century (1901-2000)". Combining that with the Grade I and Listed Building filters should give me what I want. But can I make the thing work!?! It gives me a list of over 2000 entries, beginning with Bowden Park, a James Wyatt country house of 1796! Any ideas as to what I'm doing wrong? Hope you're keeping well and all the best. KJP1 (talk) 09:26, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, the search looks to include older buildings if they have had any C20 renovations/remodelling. I cannot see a way to filter these out. There is a list of 34 churches on c20society.org.uk, but no list for all buildings types. EdwardUK (talk) 10:49, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
EdwardUK - That’s a pain. But thanks very much for taking a look. I might email them and see if they can provide such a list. KJP1 (talk) 11:24, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Table format[edit]

For the relatively small number of us that take an interest in this stuff, I'd be keen to get views on the structure of the table. My initial thoughts are:

  • Notes column - I rather like these as they allow a little flesh on the bones. We have them, I think, in all the Welsh listed lists. But they are not consistent in England, e.g. Grade I listed buildings in the City of Westminster (not got) and Grade I listed buildings in Cheshire West and Chester (got). The downside is that, quite understandably, a Notes column wouldn't be sortable.
  • Name of architect - We don't have this anywhere that I know of, and I can understand why. For churches, it would be largely redundant and they make up the majority of Grade I listed buildings. But, for me, there are some interesting things about the modern buildings, where the architects/architectural firms are all known, especially the preponderance of a small number. Lutyens is ahead with 8, Arne Jacobsen scoops 5 with the multiple listings for St Catherine's College, Oxford, in which he's equalled by Lubetkin, and the rest have 1 or 2 each. A sortable Architects column may be useful, or perhaps it's not worth the trouble, and inconsistency.

Anyways, any thoughts/views would be appreciated. KJP1 (talk) 16:18, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, just seen a neat trick here, Grade I listed buildings in Derbyshire, where the architect is put in the Completed column. Maybe a nice workaround? KJP1 (talk) 16:27, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent work on this so far, KJP! I think a (concise) notes column is worthwhile, and I'm in favour of including architect/artist. With modern buildings, we usually know who was responsible and they're likely to be notable if they've designed a Grade I listed building. I do wonder if we're going to have to rethink the definition of "modern" at some point—the article uses a 1901 cutoff but a 1901 building is now 123 years old! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:29, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Harry, useful feedback. I think you may well be right on the "Modern". Historic England's Advanced Search (so called!, It won't let me get a definitive list) has a "Historic Period" filter that divides into "20th Century" and "21st Century". I'm pretty sure there is not yet a Grade I 21st century building (although the BL is close), so we could rename this "Grade I 20th century listed buildings in England". Then, someone else can do a 21st century list, as that'll probably be needed after I've typed my last Wiki edit! KJP1 (talk) 16:51, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
p.s. I take back all that I said about HE. They've just sent me a spreadsheet with all the 20th c. Grade Is, there are no 21st century. And I only asked at lunchtime. Unfortunately, what it shows is that this list is much more incomplete than I thought. There are 136 rows! Including stacks more Lutyens, memorials and houses. Much to be done. KJP1 (talk) 17:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I had a feeling on completeness. You've got the Guards Memorial, Royal Artillery Memorial, Spalding War Memorial, the Arch of Remembrance, Rochdale Cenotaph, the Tower Hill Memorial, Southampton Cenotaph, Northampton War Memorial, Northumberland Fusiliers Memorial, Liverpool Cenotaph. In fact almost all of the Grade I listed war memorials in England. And that's just off the top of my head. I expect there'll be a few bridges on there as well. I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing C21 grade Is fairly soon but I'm not convinced the quality of 21st-century architecture merits it! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:12, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do like having the notes column, but know from experience that it can take a lot of effort to edit it down to just the most important details. It is going to be a long list and as most entries here have (or could have) their own article then would be reasonable to leave it out. I also would not bother with the wikidata and commonscat links as I think of them as unnecessary clutter which is better restricted to the individual articles. EdwardUK (talk) 18:12, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Edward - Many thanks also, again very helpful feedback. I think I now agree on the Notes, particularly as I've now managed to filch an Architect Column from one of the London lists. It would likely end up too busy and, as you say, almost all of them will have their own articles. I think I will focus on making the article complete, in tabular form, and then think about tweaks. That task alone is going to take a while! All the best. KJP1 (talk) 08:09, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell - Harry, is it just me, or do all of Robert Lorimer's memorials look identical? KJP1 (talk) 19:05, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are some subtle differences I believe but they are very much variations on a theme. Must get to Chatham! I've been to the other two. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:09, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Edge" cases[edit]

Certainly unusual!
  • Ullet Road Unitarian Church 1898-1902 - the church was completed, and opened before the end of the 19th, although ancillary buildings completed thereafter, so I think, like the Fitzalan Chapel, I'm going to leave this one out. KJP1 (talk) 20:27, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Buckingham Palace? Certainly not all 20th century, but the façade is, and is arguably its defining feature? KJP1 (talk) 05:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Have decided to leave Buck House out. KJP1 (talk) 06:17, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And have now seen I’m wrong, as the forecourt is separately listed. By Webb 1911, so needs to go in. NHLE1239251 KJP1 (talk) 09:26, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Westminster Cathedral - another which straddles the 19/20th centuries. In or out? KJP1 (talk) 17:03, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd probably include it but I can see an argument for excluding. As long as we're consistent I'd be happy but if it's just a handful of edge cases my vote would be to include them. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:30, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tigbourne Court - 1899-1901. Could you get more edge. But Lutyens' "best"!
  • Church of St Peter, Shaldon, [HE - 1269235] 1893-1902 by Edmund Harold Sedding. Flying buttresses added 1932 by W.D Caröe.
I'm going to put all the "edge" cases here, and then we can make a consistency call. KJP1 (talk) 06:42, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My thinking on the remaining four above is that, as substantial elements of each were completed in the 20th C., I'm going to include them. They can always be removed, individually or collectively, if others disagree. KJP1 (talk) 20:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Historic England. "Roman Catholic Cathedral of St John the Baptist (Grade I) (1051299)". National Heritage List for England. Retrieved 5 December 2023.

Queries[edit]

I wonder where the original editor, User:Mark Wheaver, got their source data from? This was in originally, and it is also in the spreadsheet of 20th century Grade Is Historic England provided. But why? I can't see anything in the listing record that suggests there has been 20th C. work, let alone that the whole thing is modern? Certainly our article, Berwick town walls doesn't suggest this. KJP1 (talk) 06:49, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

HE 1048844 - The Unicorn buildings much pre-date 1901, but it was reconstructed as a theatre (in Elizabethan style) in the 20th C. [2]. KJP1 (talk) 08:43, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And, following the logic above, I'm going to leave these out. KJP1 (talk) 20:32, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Buildings added[edit]

KJP1 (talk) 06:35, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article name and referencing[edit]

HJ Mitchell/EdwardUK - Morning both. I'd appreciate any thoughts on two final issues:

  • Article name - taking Harry's point that, for example, Tigbourne Court, completed 1901, can hardly be called a "modern" building, do we have the right article title? Would, for example, Grade I listed buildings completed in the 20th century be better, or some variant of that?
  • I've eliminated all the References, bar the one I left in for the Willis Building, Ipswich as an aide-memoire. But was I right to do so? Although the Ref wouldn't actually give any more information than the Entry number, the article looks a bit "odd" without references. Certainly, we used them in all the Welsh Listed lists. What do you think? I can easily put them back in.

Other than that, I think it's now complete. Do you think it might do for FLC? KJP1 (talk) 09:45, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Completed in the twentieth century" looks to be a good option as "modern" does not have a clear definition and "post-Victorian" would not work because of the date range of some buildings.
Because the table does not have a notes section or any information from sources other than the list entry then references might not be needed, though it may be worth mentioning where the info is sourced from, either directly in the text and/or as a hidden note at the top of the list such as <!-- All architects and dates are sourced from the NHLE list entries -->.
If looking for FL-status it may be useful to have a general paragraph or two about the listed sites as is included in the Monmouthshire lists, and this would have citations so it would fill out the references section a bit more. As there is an article on Grade I listed war memorials in England a link to it could be added here too. However, as that list is entirely C20th and some of this list is an almost exact duplication of it there are a couple of options to consider. The list could be kept as it is, or war memorials could be excluded from it and replaced with an explanation and link to the other article. This would mean that if any more were designated/upgraded to Grade I then only one list would need to be updated. Another option would be to remove them from the list here and re-add them by section transclusion from the other article. EdwardUK (talk) 17:20, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
EdwardUK - very helpful as ever, and I’ve already implemented a couple of your suggestions. You’re also quite right, it needs work for FLC, which will have to wait. The title I shall amend as suggested, unless Harry, or anyone else, has any concerns. On the war memorials, I’d be a bit reluctant to leave them out, as I think it’s helpful to the reader to have all the 20th century Grade Is in one place. But the list of memorials should certainly be mentioned, and I’ll do that when I work up the introductory para.s. The prevalence of war memorials is certainly a theme - it’s an interesting question, though currently OR, as to how much that was driven by merit, or First World War centenary sentiment/political posturing. The Lutyens are superb, for me the Lorimer’s look like he used a photocopier! Thanks again and all the best. KJP1 (talk) 18:34, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent work on this, KJP! And I like the new title. It better captures the scope of the article; "modern" was too ambiguous. Most of the war memorials were a result of a drive by HE to list or upgrade as many as possible during the centenary; just about every freestanding war memorial of any artistic merit is listed now (which I think is a very good thing). The Cenotaph was obviously already Grade I, as were a few others (the Royal Artillery, Port Sunlight, Leicester). Lorimer's are very impressive up close, and remember that listing considers historic as well as architectural interest (which probably also helps to explain the preponderance of war memorials). If you're thinking about FLC, you probably want a bit more prose on the buildings as a group (isn't there a book on modern listed buildings?). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:43, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delisted buildings[edit]

Nice list - I wonder if there might be scope to include 20th century buildings that have been listed and delisted/destroyed. There can't be many, but one obvious example is Greenside, Virginia Water. [3] Theramin (talk) 01:32, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Theramin - Glad you like the list; I think it’s helpful to have them all in one place. I like the suggestion re. delisted/demolished buildings, but this list does only focus on the Grade Is. Greenside, a very unfortunate loss, was Grade II. I’d actually be surprised if there have been any Grade Is that have gone. The Firestone Tyre Factory may have been, had Nigel Broackes not flattened it before listing! And St Pancras would definitely have been had British Rail for their way, but that’s a 19th century building so wouldn’t have fitted here either. KJP1 (talk) 18:50, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, my mistake, of course. You are dealing only with Grade I listed buildings here.
If you widen to other grades, even just for post-1945 listed buildings, it is perhaps too wide a category to say much - there are many hundreds of them now, although still a tiny fraction of the hundreds of thousands on the full list, and even rarer for the modern ones to be destroyed after listing. There are some fascinating examples. Perhaps something for the new year.
For what it is worth, I think it is worth continuing to deal with the 20 Grade I listed war memorials in England separately, even if they are also included here - and indeed the 140 or so Grade II* listed war memorials in England too - as we have for some time, thanks largely to the work of HJ Mitchell. There are thousands more at Grade II. Theramin (talk) 00:24, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thematic House[edit]

To include, or not, the Thematic House? [NHLE=1450124]. Grade I on account of its 20th century refurbishment, certainly, but essentially part of an 1840s terrace. I think not, but others may disagree. KJP1 (talk) 08:07, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should include it as its Grade I listed status derives from its PoMo refurb. We need to go on a tour! No Swan So Fine (talk) 19:33, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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